Discussion ended....
I agree but....
It still did not say the debate has anything to do with the heart!

@ Angela

This what you copied

«Whether any techniques at all exist that will actually work to change thought and behavior to the degree that the term “brainwashing” connotes is a controversial and at times hotly debated question.»

End of Discussion

This piece has the semblance of reason and intelligence; but is really nothing more than empty palliatives and a hotch-potch of crudely-banged together ideas that do not make much sense as a whole.

Please allow me to explain thus:

Firstly, the writer fails woefully when it comes to identifying «learned» instincts and «natural» instincts.

Those that fail to understand the above are easily recognised. They are those misled individuals that say that men and women are really the same if not for social pressures and programming.

Everyone who ever raised a small boy and a little girl knows that the hunter/gather nature of the boy, and the arranger/cherisher nature of the girl starts as «basic» instincts from the moment they are able to display anything remotely resembling a personality.

They would also argue that if women «borrowed» men's hunter instinctual behaviour, they would achieve more results in the thing that they desire...BUT the key question is this: «do men and women desire the same thing, and do males and females appreciate the same things»?

The answer - to someone that has not become brain-dead owing to Political Correctness - is an emphatic NO.

Who does not know that men are «suspicious» of women who come on too strong?

And who does not know that the secret desire of all women (at least those still in touch with their femininity) is to be the subject of desires of strong men? Even to the point where the men draw their «swords» and «do battle» to gain her attention and affection?

Men already have a problem with commitment to ladies that they expend energy and resources in gaining their affection; imagine the situation where they have not had to expend any bother to gain a lady's «goods» and then you understand the silly proposition that is contained in the email below.

The concept of the «lady and the tramp» is engrained in the deepest instincts of the male race - and to pretend otherwise will land you not a veritable husband, but charlatans and no-gooders who will plunder the castle and pi** in the moat as they leave at first light.

Daughters of Eve, respect yourselves and pander not to the «binge-drinking, misguided, slackers of the now-generation».

I can just imagine Ade (a male) talking to his mother about Shade (a slack female):

MUM: «Tell me again Ade where did you and Shade meet; and why does she not realise that a lady crosses her legs when wearing such a short skirt?»

AUNTY: «True Ade. Tell me about her background. Was she in medical school with you?»

ADE (Fidgets in discomfort): Actually we worked together. And it was during one night when she had drunk too much that I found her hands wandering around my jeans. And before you could say «happy slapper» we were in the back of my car, and Bobs your uncle. I later found out she is a very intelligent and nice girl from an excellent family. But the best thing about her is that she is very emancipated and thinks-outside-the-box»

He gets bolder: «In fact, she is such an advanced thinker that she does not need any man to validate her and she has let me understand that if I ever do anything remotely resembling an Alpha-Male, she will quickly have her hands all over my friends' jeans»

«I plan to behave myself as a renaissance man once we have concluded the up-coming wedding in Ayede-Ekiti».

«Aunty, I hope you still plan to sponsor the wedding reception».

Can everyone see the ridiculous nature of these I-have-come-to-London-and-am-now-a-law-unto-myself pretenders that call themselves Africans?

Anyhow, I trust that most of us are above the «I-cant-be-bovvered mentality that this email represents.

When the ladies become the tramps, you wonder where the gentlemen of Chivalry of yesteryears have gone.

I can see it all now:

ADE (slouching on the Sofa on a Monday noontime): I wonder why are always complaining about my not finding work. Did I tell you I was ready to get married when I met you? Was it not you hustling and pushing me into marriage? Madam Desperado. Abeg leave me o jare. If not for me, you for find Husband?»

Trust me; only the most stupid person thinks it is a good idea to propose to an African man - least of all a Yoruba (who traditionally have strong family ties).

After Ade «chops» the goods and moves on, maybe you try Akin, and then Abiola, Adamu, Abimbola, Afayose, Abisola, etc...

...I have to go look after my kids...later all
@Dipo and all

OK enough. lets move on to the next point. Everyone has their interpretation of things, hence why we cant all agree on a point. Let us all agree to disagree.

But i wont Lie I agree with miguel.

brainwashing

Systematic effort to destroy an individual's former loyalties and beliefs and to substitute loyalty to a new ideology or power. It has been used by religious cults as well as by radical political groups. The techniques of brainwashing usually involve isolation from former associates and sources of information; an exacting regimen calling for absolute obedience and humility; strong social pressures and rewards for cooperation; physical and psychological punishments for noncooperation, including social ostracism and criticism, deprivation of food, sleep, and social contacts, bondage, and torture; and constant reinforcement. Its effects are sometimes reversed through deprogramming, which combines confrontation and intensive psychotherapy.Directory > Health > Medical Dictionary brain·wash·ing (brān'wŏsh'ĭng)
n.
Inducing a person to modify his or her beliefs, attitudes, or behavior by conditioning through various forms of pressure or torture.

WordNet
Directory > Words > WordNet Note: click on a word meaning below to see its connections and related words.
The noun brainwashing has one meaning:

Meaning #1: forcible indoctrination into a new set of attitudes and beliefs

brainwashing
Brainwashing, also known as thought reform or re-education, is the application of coercive techniques to change the beliefs or behavior of one or more people usually for political or religious purposes. Whether any techniques at all exist that will actually work to change thought and behavior to the degree that the term «brainwashing» connotes is a controversial and at times hotly debated question.

@ Dipo....No where do i see the heart gettin invovled.

@ Angela

You are actually making me laff my heart out! So, I am familiar withbrainwashing.(lol)

My dear, no matter the brainwashing, if it does not get to the realm of the heart, it would be ineffective after sometime.

You are rigth...

I dont disagree with all that....all I am saying the result of that kind of conditioning is not natural....ask most women that had said in there 20s they did not want to marry or have kids..them they are many in there 40 and then have a overwhelming desire to.....When God made woman there are hings he put in us that he did not put in a man....I will not train my daugthers to be weak( if that is what you think being a woman is all about)...be I say again i will teach them that if a man is interested he should take the lead...cos if they marry him the possiblity of the wife taking the lead and having to push the man all the time is not one I find attactive in a real MAN.

You keep on saying conditioning...i will have to take sometime and really think about my reply to you about all that.It is simply conditioning. Our hearts are directly proportionate to what has been fed to the mind over a period of time.

These explanations can be used when explaining suicide bombing, etc.
....I beg to differ it is not heart that explines suicide bombing /bombers but BRAIN WASHING( CONDITIONING) which I know you are very familiar with@ Dipo

@ Angela

Wow, that was a nice one and actually involves a lot of thinking!

I quite disagree with this statement though

» There is a part of a woman that want to know ….A man wanted me and came after me.
If a woman is the one to do the chasing…or ask for marriage , only God can help her make sure she never has moment in that realtionship she does not feel he may have sold her self short.»

This particular statement is based on conditioning from novels, films, novelas, soap operas, etc.
If a lady is brought up in a home where he is trained to ask the man first and this same lady is not infilterated with films, external students that think a male should ask first,etc. If this lady have friends that also think they should ask the man first. the tendency of this lady asking the man and never feeling shortchanged is 100%.

It is simply conditioning. Our hearts are directly proportionate to what has been fed to the mind over a period of time.

These explanations can be used when explaining suicide bombing, etc.

MY ANSWER: Whoever proposes does not matter? You can not put God in a cage by saying he gives male the revelation first before the female. I would repeat this by saying the interpretation of the bible is based on levels of Spiritual Maturity.
This i agree Dipo

we are i think are mixing up two different points...

God revelation is to all his children(male/or female)
what I i believed we are talking about is how one(females) are to behave regaurding starting a relationship( to marriage)
There is no other place i see the word help-meet( EZAR) use@ Dipo only in relation to the creation or man and woman.

In Joyce Meyers Home she is not the head of that home Her husband is and she says it....
In her ministry...she has an Office which her husband surpports.That I dont think is the same thing we are talking about.
MY ANSWER: How have I twisted the bible? I clearly stated that you should not take the bible at face value but the spirit inherit in it because the letter killeth. If you keep on saying that it is “He who finds a wife” then I will say you are very wrong because if I take the scripture that says “He who finds a wife, findeth a good thing and obtaineth favour from the Lord” at face value, all I need to do is to look for any woman and marry then I will obtain favour from the Lord. But we know this is not consistent with the bible because the same Proverbs talks about a “contentious woman” that make you prefer to stay at the roof top of your house inside your home. Would you call that God’s favor.....

No I will not call that Gods favor...

Headship...Leadership...are spiritual not just soundbits.

@Dipo you are responding to this matter just like a man...which there is not wrong with that( very logical) this of the heart, women emotion and minds do not operate that way.

There is a part of a woman that want to know ....A man wanted me and came after me.
If a woman is the one to do the chasing...or ask for marriage , only God can help her make sure she never has moment in that realtionship she does not feel he may have sold her self short.

IN MY OPINION.

Angela.

@ Miguel

Your qoute-«So if the bible says its the man that discovers, isnt it only right to wait for the guy to propose? cos clearly revelation came to the man and not the woman. In matters like this, the man is the first to get the revelation before God gives the woman confirmation.»

MY ANSWER: Whoever proposes does not matter? You can not put God in a cage by saying he gives male the revelation first before the female. I would repeat this by saying the interpretation of the bible is based on levels of Spiritual Maturity.

God made man; male and female he made them. man is regarded as either male or female. God called Adam and gave him an assignment and said it is not good for man to be alone. It does not mean because God gave Adam the assignment that it is a male that always needs help-meet. Thats why I talked of conditioning at the beginning of my article.

Lets use present day happenings, God called Joyce Meyer and gave her a help-meet in form of a husband.

Your qoute - » Lets not in our desire to make our point twist the bible…it is clear what the bible means by “He who finds a wife…” if it was for a woman to propose to the man, the woman would have gotten revelation.»

MY ANSWER: How have I twisted the bible? I clearly stated that you should not take the bible at face value but the spirit inherit in it because the letter killeth. If you keep on saying that it is «He who finds a wife» then I will say you are very wrong because if I take the scripture that says «He who finds a wife, findeth a good thing and obtaineth favour from the Lord» at face value, all I need to do is to look for any woman and marry then I will obtain favour from the Lord. But we know this is not consistent with the bible because the same Proverbs talks about a «contentious woman» that make you prefer to stay at the roof top of your house inside your home. Would you call that God's favour.

Taking the scripture at face value actually kills. Lets not condition our minds to the way things are but emulate the Spirit of God that constantly thinks outside the box